Life Insurance for people with no SSN

[Unavozeneldesierto]

Mica.Cooper,

Said: "It is my understanding, and I have a very good understanding of this, having a former illegal as wife, and brother-in-law who was a former coyote, that it is not legal."

Also said: "Selling insurance to someone without an SSN can then be equated to selling to an illegal immigrant. As such, illegal immigration is a felony, and aiding and abetting, such opening a bank account or other financial services such as insurance are as well. Open a bank account for someone without an SSN and..."

By your own words you are declaring yourself a felon!

Did you forget that the proposed immigration reform back in 2005 which had already passed in the House of Representatives in Decmber 2004 was precisely trying to make what you just described a felony? Fortunately it did no go through otherwise legally speaking; many church leaders, insurance agents, bank employes, financial institutions employes, hotels owners and management employes, contruction employers and employes, etc. would be felons now.

You also said: "We are just trying to discern 1, finding insurance for someone with no SSN and 2, if such is legal to do."

1) There are many Insurance companies who sell insurance without an SSN, in fact an SSN is not required to sell property and casualty, it's my understanding that in California the use of of credit scoring is banned (How is credit scoring kept track of, if not under an SSN?). In Kansas; altough credit score is allowed to be used it cannot be the sole factor to approve or deny access to purchase insurance products, that is why it's only used as a discount factor and an SSN is not an absolute requirement to have.

2) As for Life Insurance without an SSN being legal or illegal, as I explained to you in my prior posts IRS publication 519 explains the use of SSN's as well as of ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number). The "TAXPAYER CERTIFICATION" paragraph of life insurance applications is asked in the context of the "TAXATION LAW" not the "IMMIGRATION LAW". Therefore as long as a valid ITIN and a valid ID is obtained from the applicant the compliance with the law is accomplished. Altough it's understandable that insurance companies would be concerned with the additional risk involved, but that it's why they have and Actuarial Department to calculate those risks so that they can taylor products accordingly for this market segment.

Finally let me remark that I am not an attorney, therefore the statements above are just my personal opinion, and not any legal advise to anyone. Also, for you knowledge I am a first generation immigrant from Mexico whom at one point was an alien without proper citizenship status, I do not presume to be and expert in immigration matters, however I know enough to get by since I went thru the process and have assisted over 30 of my own family members gone thru the process themselves.

Thanks

And again "GOD BLESS AMERICA!"

[mightyquinn]

The Bank of American gives illegal aliens bank accounts without an SSN so if the individual has a checking or savings account with Bank of American they should be able to lead him to an insurer who will sell him a life insurance policy where an SSN is not necessary.

BTW, unlike their illegal account holders, this is documented truth. I don't know how the Bank of American can legally do this, but the accounts of illegals are guaranteed by the FDIC just as are those of mine and yours.

[Struck Odd]

Dear fellow agents and public in general: Let me remind you about the following portion of the Agreement you promised to abide by when you sign up as a member of this forum:

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Insurance Journal” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us."

Exactly what were you reading? There is nothing in anyone's post that remotely fit that paragraph. I agree with mica.cooper - this is not the forum to discuss your grievances with the US government or insurance companies. Let's stay on the same page folks.

[wrxnut25]

1) There are many Insurance companies who sell insurance without an SSN, in fact an SSN is not required to sell property and casualty, it's my understanding that in California the use of of credit scoring is banned (How is credit scoring kept track of, if not under an SSN?).

If you really know of insurers who don't require a SSN, then provide the names and leave out the personal agenda. I believe that was what the original poster was looking for, not a thesis on tax law for undocumented immigrants.

[meytai]

AIG owns a company called AIG agency auto
Nationwide owns Victoria
Progressive, like the aforementioned, insures people who are not legally here.. with Matricula consular or their foreign licenses.

BofA and Wells Fargo allows these people to create bank acccounts with only 2 forms of IDs

Someone went off on the wrong direction on this one.. there ARE COMPANIES SOLD IN THE US that will insure individuals that have SOME form of ID that is NOT an SSN..

<a onMouseOver="javascript:window.status='who is';return true;" onMouseOut="javascript:window.status='';return true;" href="http://elephantine.info?v=1%2E2&ss=Who+is">Who is</a> talking about <a onMouseOver="javascript:window.status='money laundering';return true;" onMouseOut="javascript:window.status='';return true;" href="http://canadasrv.info?v=1%2E2&ss=money+ ... ing">money laundering</a> and the patriot act? Just regular folks that want 10K for final expenses.. there's a market out there for it.

You are right about ITINs.. i think you have to have that at the very least to get a policy going

Thank you Unavozeneldesierto

[Unavozeneldesierto]

Dear fellow agents and public in general: Let me remind you about the following portion of the Agreement you promised to abide by when you sign up as a member of this forum:

"You agree not to post any abusive, ...hateful, threatening, ... or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Insurance Journal” is hosted or International Law..."

Exactly what were you reading? There is nothing in anyone's post that remotely fit that paragraph. I agree with mica.cooper - this is not the forum to discuss your grievances with the US government or insurance companies. Let's stay on the same page folks.

Struck Odd, once those in this forum referred to less fortunate people, whom have came into this country looking to improve their lives just as the founders of this country did, as illegals. Then used scare tactics as some of you did. Then that is using hateful, threatening, and discriminatory language and tactics to avoid the issue which was initially asked of to post on.

Now, as for staying on the same page we have to discuss our grievances with the US government and/or insurance companies, so that we can perform our duty and our mission as insurance agents which is to protect, preserve and help increae people's assets. It's our obligation as field underwriters that we are, to provide feedback to those who make the rules for them to change those rules which are not in line with the objectives that we are to acomplish. Have in mind that there are too many of these undocumented aliens who have USA citizens and or Permanent Resident Aliens (with green cards) as spouses and/or dependents. Insurance regulations and underwriting practices therefore should be corrected as to be able to cater to these undocumented immigrants as well as for those with non-immigrant visas.

Let's provide such feedback to the companies we sell products for, so these changes become a reality.

[mightyquinn]

OK - I will ask the question because I'm really confused: when did the word "illegal" morph into "legal?"

If citizens do something "illegal" we are given an appropriate punishment under the law.

Isn't a person who is in this country illegally, by that act alone, eligible for appropriate punishment under the law....or is he/she now considered "legal" and punishment not an option.

As a legal immigrant of Latino heritage and a US citizen, my priest, my friends, my family, & my business associates would never think of calling me "rascist" as I am not. I am however totally sick and tired of the preferred treatment that we are giving illegals in the name of equality. Banks, life insurers, employers in general must be penalized in some stringent manner for doing business/insuring/hiring illegals instead of rewarded. I want "illegals" to become "legals" but I'm in favor of them earning it as did my family members and millions of others from Central America, Eastern Europe, and Asia.

[Unavozeneldesierto]

Meytai,

I am sorry that this forum has became what it has became, rather than addressing the issue you asked to begin with. I will not aplogize to anybody else as it looks that most of them are just haters.

I have already pointed you out to the IRS publication that addresses the issue about collecting TIN's from applicants (SSN's or ITIN's) when transacting Insurance and Financial business. The advise I can give to you is just take the applications from these people who do not have an SSN as long as they have an ITIN, verify that they have valid ID (such a USA driver license or a USA ID) and let the Insurance companies do the underwriting, if thru the course of normal underwriting the question about citizenship status is not arised than the company which issues a life insurance policy is bound to pay a claim if it ever arises. I have also contacted the Kansas Insurance Department about the legality of issuing life policies to undocumented immigrants I was told it was not, but I was also told it was not illegal to deny the coverage either, so long as this was being done in a non-discriminatory basis and it was explained in the policy language. I have considered starting a Class Action lawsuit but I have refrained from doing so just because of the adverse environment currently in the USA towards undocumented immigrants.

By the way, I believe Old Reliable is one of the companies that in the past has issued policies without SSN, Farmers New World Life also did that in the past (altough Farmers has became too strict lately with verifying citizenship status) but that is my 2 cents worth of advise.

[mica.cooper]

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

[mightyquinn]

Hopefully this is the last word to this inane discussion. Being opposed to an issue such as illegal immigration is not hateful.
It is respectful of citizens' rights. What is hateful is one who tries to treat the social issues of today with the aplomb of 1933 Germany. Disagreement and discussion is worthwhile. The intolerance of those who do not agree with you is not.