Attorney considering CPCU- thoughts?

[ambulance_chaser]

Hi all, came across the board via a Google search for "CPCU advice." Here is my situation:

I am a 33 year old attorney, admitted to the NY & NJ bars in 2006. I worked for my first 2 years out of law school at a plaintiff's personal injury firm in NYC, handling general liability cases (auto & premises accidents, slip/fall, etc). It did not pay very well, I was making 60 K when I left and the job did not offer health benefits, 401k, or any other "perks" and also involved long hours and no chance for advancement or partnership.

After leaving the personal injury firm, I worked as a "temp" freelance or "contract" lawyer for several large firms in NYC. These temp jobs were mostly document review/e-discovery stuff, very low paying ($29 an hour) and no health benefits or opportunity for advancement (in case you haven't heard, most lawyers today from non-Ivy law schools earn an abysmal living- the market is saturated beyond belief and associate positions are very scarce.)

I am currently collecting unemployment and thought of using the time off for full time CPCU study. As a JD/licensed attorney I get credit/waiver for the 530 Insurance Laws course, so I have a bit of an advantage there.

My worry is that most risk manager/ underwriting/ insurance jobs seem to want 5+ years insurance experience. I was thinking of pursuing the CPCU so that:

1.) Insurance companies will realize that I am serious about "leaving the law behind" and am dedicated to starting a career in risk mgmt.

2.) I can get a great nuts n' bolts background in risk mgmt and underwriting so that I'm not totally "green" in this area.

I have already ordered some used study materials for the 510, 520 and 540 courses from ebay and have been skimming the material the past week. It seems very interesting and like something I'd be pretty happy doing.

Do you all think the combonation of a CPCU/Law Degree would be attractive for risk manager positions? Or will my lack of hands-on industry experience still "cancel out' any advantage? Will I still be doomed even with a JD/CPCU to start out in some miserable auto accident /PIP claims adjuster boiler room for 35 K, or would it be possible to get a mid-level position right out of the box?

I appreciate any thoughts and advice. Thank you.

[joel66]

I can only give you feedback from a claims perspective. Having a law degree and getting into claims would fast track you into litigation claims a lot faster than something without the law background. Same would be for manager in a litigation dept. By having both CPCU and JD, not only would that open doors in litigation claims, you can also get your foot in the door in an insurance company's legal dept. by doing coverage review and other insurance defense work. With a few years of experience doing claims and having JD/CPCU, that would even open doors for insurance defense firms in addition to in-house counsel for insurance companies.

[St.CaptiveGuy]

You might be able to take that experience and use it to gain a position at a growing small firm that has until now only retained general counsel, but is interested in developing this into staff counsel. Firms with 50-100 FT EEs are often at the point where they're looking for ways to get more out of their legal dollar, and getting dedicated staff counsel often appears as a great way to increase the resources they can apply to dispute mitigation, contract development and risk management (although they usually don't think of the last one themselves). Take the CRM class series from National Alliance, and the Principals of Risk Management module alone will give you lots of ideas of how to parlay your info into a interview presentation. The position won't pay tons ($60-100k 1st year or 2), but should give you lots of contacts & experience you can build on.

[gregcw]

As joel66 said the CPCU would be advantageous in claims and as St.CaptiveGuy said the National Alliance CRM Principals of Risk Management would also be helpful in getting a foot in the door. One other direction that you might want to consider, already having the JD, would be completing the entire CRM course and getting the Certified Risk Managers designation. This would open the door to a position as a Risk Manager for either a public entity or a private company. I have a friend that is a Risk Manager for the State of Washington and he does get involved in litigation even though he does not have the JD. Many larger corporations also have Risk Management departments.

[alx730]

I've also seen some corporate Risk Management departments that answer to Legal. Not very often, but it's there.

The CRM program is great for learning the basics, but the ARM (Associate in Risk Management) from the AICPCU is more well known, better respected, and will open some doors. You can find out more about it on the CPCU website.

Good luck

[joel66]

I've also seen some corporate Risk Management departments that answer to Legal. Not very often, but it's there.

The CRM program is great for learning the basics, but the ARM (Associate in Risk Management) from the AICPCU is more well known, better respected, and will open some doors. You can find out more about it on the CPCU website.

Good luck

I'm down to 4 CPCU exams left to complete my CPCU and hoping to complete ARM-E prior to end of 2010. I thought about law school, but with my job having me travel to mediations and settlement conferences in the western states that would not be possible. Also, I'm looking to transition from claims into either Risk/Financial Analysts or Risk Management field. I'm also starting my MBA on January 4th online, so I can continue to work on my education and not effect my job. Also, if anything happens to my current job, I can keep my options open nationwide instead of locally.

[bwjames]

Something to consider is that if you don't first have 2 years industry experience (3 years under the old requirements), after passing the 7 exams (530 is waived for you) the CPCU designation still will not be conferred upon you, thus preventing you from citing this as a credential until you have met the experience requirement for the designation. A thoughtful employer could perhaps appreciate your completion of the educational requirements, but the fact that you have completed the education requirements but not had the designation yet conferred upon you would seem to highlight your lack of experience during the interview process.

[ambulance_chaser]

Thank you all for the advice- I am aware that I am not technically a CPCU until I obtain the 2 year experience requirement. I was planning on applying for insurance company jobs once I get the "core" CPCU classes completed (510 thru 560), and then working on the ARM designation (which does seem to be better known than the CRM).

I defeinetly want to move up to a higher level of work than the fender bender/ slip n' fall nonsense that I was doing at the law firm, and it's the perfect time for me now since I have unlimited study time and an unemployment check coming in each week.

In case you're wondering why I don't go the "solo" ambulance chaser route, it's because most of these small-time plainitff firms & solos are closing up left and right since it is impossible to get settlments anymore on soft-tissue auto cases in NY/NJ. Once Allstate started the "fight to the death" model in the late 90s/early 00s, other carriers wised up and now will force you to trial for herniated/bulging discs, torn muscles, etc (if they don't get the case dismissed on a "threshold" motion before trial.) These cases used to settle for b/t $7500-$12,000 with a few phone calls, but those days are long gone. Auto accidents were the bread n' butter of most small plaintiff shops, and with that area all but dried up I'm seeing lawyers in the 40s and 50s out of work and looking for career changes. I don't want to end up like that- it's a sad, sad situation.

[CorwinBrown]

Numerous student benefits are associated with the objective exam format. Having more questions (85 to 100, rather than 30 to 35) will give students a greater opportunity to demonstrate knowledge of the material. The new exam format also will result in improved and more efficient grading. Objective grading eliminates the waiting period for grades, helping students progress more efficiently through the CPCU program. The new format will also allow the Institutes to provide more consistent and timely exam performance feedback to help non-passers better prepare to retake re·take

[Jason_94609]

I work on the retail side, got a CPCU and many times I have wished I had a law degree. Have you ever thought of working on the retail side and getting close the sales process? FYI: its where the money is!!!

[injury-law]

its the great move . many professionals have earned the CPCU professional designation

[Rainmaker]

Okay I know your question is JD considering CPCU - and I think you've received some pretty darn good feedback so far on this string.

One more thing to consider: JD considering CLU! Every JD that I have witnessed getting into the estate planning/advanced life insurance side of the business has done extremely well. Consider as well, that with the aging of the baby boomers more and more demand will be placed upon this segment of the industry. The issues of taxation, trusts, and funding are key disciplines - all of which you could address effectively with your credentials should you decide to go this route.

Food for thought only.

Best of luck to you.

[michga11]

alphabet soup. lol!

[rmsnot]

Don't do it! Make use of your law degree. Good luck!

[AlstonCPCU]

What you'll find with designations such as the CPCU, ARM, and other legitimate ones is that you are viewed as someone who has spent time to earn and learn a little more than others about what you're doing or want to do. Some here call it "alphabet soup" and I'm guess those same individuals scoff at the time spent in college to earn a degree. I have a number of acquaintances who are lawyers and have CPCUs, including one who has spent time at Firemens Fund and is now working at a big law firm. A designation is not a panacea, but when combined with other education, hard work, and real world experience, you should do very well. You have nothing to lose but a little time in getting your CPCU. You could always sit on the couch and watch Survivor, sporting events, or goof off. I'm guessing the average American insurance professional watches a lot of TV like other Americans. Eliminate TV and get a designation. To quote a famous entrepreneur, "Invest in yourself, you'll never cheat yourself."