Count on my toe, fingers, arms, etc how many times this happens.
Someone asks for a HO/AU quote for their family. While taking information I ask about the occupation, vehicles, vehicle use, etc. The guy says, I am a self employed carpenter/contractor/re-modeler. I ask who is has the business auto on the truck,. that truck sitting out there filled with tools and 2X4's, etc.
Answer: Oh I have that on our home and car insurance policy.
My question: does your agent know you are hauling materials, going to job sites, carrying your tools, etc.
Answers:
No they don't know or....
Yes they know and tell me not to worry about it, there shouldn't be a problem.
Hm??????
Rhetorical thought here: What does that PIP stand for?
So I tell him that I can not quote that truck on his personal auto policy and out the door he goes.
It would be very easy to just play dumb, sell more insurance but hey I've been here for over twenty years and I don't plan on going to another job in the next six months. There is an 85% (recent stats) chance that the agent that isn't asking the use of the vehicle will be sitting at a new job within the next 60 days.
Or maybe I am missing something. The thing they ask is this, Do you have a sign on your vehicle?" If you say no.....they will write it on a personal policy. I am sitting my truck on job sites, hauling around tools or hauling around materials for my job such as 2X4's, 2X6's, panelling, etc.
What the heck does a sign have to do with the how you use the vehicle. So I could run a trash hauling service using my pick up truck and put no sign on the truck and get it insured under a personal policy.
I just called one of the agencies that often quote this way and played contractor/carpenter wanting insurance on a personal policy. Their very first question was, "do you have a sign on your truck?" Then they pose every question to make you answer in a way that allows you to enter the grey area. I even set up a scenario where hired and non-owned coverage would come into play and they turned it around to make it seem like...hey no problem.
I guess there isn't a problem until that big $300,000 claim happens, the investigation starts, the insurance company says, "it appears that you were using this vehicle in a commercial endevour and you are rated pleasure useage", I think we as the insurance have no legal obligation to pay this claim. Let's head off to court!
Am I missing something here?
I guess most people think if the insurance company doesn't know, everything will work out fine. Kind of like when you walk up to the jobsite to talk with your plumbing company client and he has his guys up doing roofing. Hm now how does that fly?
Why do I even ask the questions
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d's insurance store
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Let it go, give it up
You're probably going to find sympathy here, but that's about it. I urge you to let it go.
The is no remedy for what goes on in the world of insurance sales today. Agents and agency owners of integrity must constantly tear their hair out over the observed compromises. And the carriers are to blame, too.
If your market is like mine, it's quiet...not a lot of jumping around for quotes, and many of the incoming calls you do get are the inveterate price shoppers who make a hobby of trying to get the absolute lowest rate every term, or maybe every month. Many of my carriers are screaming for new biz, and some auto carriers are offering to allow funny driving licenses and short milage.
In fact, the scenerio you're noting can in fact be solved with many personal lines carriers by rating (if allowed) as Artisan or Business use. Sure, the insured doesn't get the loading/unloading coverage, but they don't care. It's an attitude of everything's fine until there's a claim. Face it, the audience for the traditional 'trusted insurance advisor' is fast dying off, and in today's insurance marketplace, price is king, and service attributes are a poor second in the race to obtain business.
If you're agency is still profitable, and you're making a good living, then figure you've got maybe another 7 to 10 years of this kind of environment, and by then we'll either all be retired, working for Bill Gates or wearing the blue vest and greeting people at WalMart.
The is no remedy for what goes on in the world of insurance sales today. Agents and agency owners of integrity must constantly tear their hair out over the observed compromises. And the carriers are to blame, too.
If your market is like mine, it's quiet...not a lot of jumping around for quotes, and many of the incoming calls you do get are the inveterate price shoppers who make a hobby of trying to get the absolute lowest rate every term, or maybe every month. Many of my carriers are screaming for new biz, and some auto carriers are offering to allow funny driving licenses and short milage.
In fact, the scenerio you're noting can in fact be solved with many personal lines carriers by rating (if allowed) as Artisan or Business use. Sure, the insured doesn't get the loading/unloading coverage, but they don't care. It's an attitude of everything's fine until there's a claim. Face it, the audience for the traditional 'trusted insurance advisor' is fast dying off, and in today's insurance marketplace, price is king, and service attributes are a poor second in the race to obtain business.
If you're agency is still profitable, and you're making a good living, then figure you've got maybe another 7 to 10 years of this kind of environment, and by then we'll either all be retired, working for Bill Gates or wearing the blue vest and greeting people at WalMart.
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independent guy
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Reminds me of the boy who just had a wreck over the weekend, who "doesn't do delivery" for a pizza shop. Coincidentally, my brother drove by that wreck right after it happened, and guess what was on top of his minivan? A pizza sign. No one else mentioned it, but we will. Too bad it was between two of our clients...
Also reminds me of the 40 year old woman who bought a sports bike, "just for her" and lied to my face. Now she's trying to add the 17 year old kid.
Also reminds me of the 40 year old woman who bought a sports bike, "just for her" and lied to my face. Now she's trying to add the 17 year old kid.
I was at a tailor shop (a guy I use for my shrinking / expanding waistline). I was asking him to do some quotes for business, auto, HO. He said this: You don't want my auto." I asked why and here is his story.
Apparently he has a son that has a driving record problem. Said son is in his forties. The agent of the tailor said, no problem. Have your son put his car in your name, you insure said car and give the OK for son to drive the car. Agent said just don't ask me any questions.
I guess that will work in court if the father has given permission to drive the car? It could come down to some form of fraud by evasion (is that a legal tenent?) or if the son was driving the car everyday, parked it at his residence, etc.
I know this.....HE WAS CORRECT! I wouldn't step into that pile of do-do.
Apparently he has a son that has a driving record problem. Said son is in his forties. The agent of the tailor said, no problem. Have your son put his car in your name, you insure said car and give the OK for son to drive the car. Agent said just don't ask me any questions.
I guess that will work in court if the father has given permission to drive the car? It could come down to some form of fraud by evasion (is that a legal tenent?) or if the son was driving the car everyday, parked it at his residence, etc.
I know this.....HE WAS CORRECT! I wouldn't step into that pile of do-do.
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yoyowordup
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Some independent agency companies will write "Artisan" use vehicles on a personal policy.
Drive Insurance from Agressive actually states:
Vehicles usedVehicles used to transport tools or other materials by the insured in a trade or business are acceptable if all of the following conditions are met:
"¢ there is only one vehicle in this category on the policy;
"¢ the insured visits no more than two job sites per day;
"¢ the vehicle is owned or leased by an individual, not a corporation
or partnership;
"¢ the vehicle is operated solely by the named insured or other
resident relative;
"¢ the vehicle is not used to transport explosives, chemicals, flammable
materials or more than 500 pounds of supplies or equipment;
and
"¢ the vehicle does not have a load capacity of one ton or greater or
a gross vehicle weight rating (according to the manufacturer's
specifications) greater than 12,000 pounds.
I'm sure there are a lot of agents are writing these types of risks on a personal policy even when they don't fit the guidelines. The point is there are some carriers that will entertain various type of artisan use.
Drive Insurance from Agressive actually states:
Vehicles usedVehicles used to transport tools or other materials by the insured in a trade or business are acceptable if all of the following conditions are met:
"¢ there is only one vehicle in this category on the policy;
"¢ the insured visits no more than two job sites per day;
"¢ the vehicle is owned or leased by an individual, not a corporation
or partnership;
"¢ the vehicle is operated solely by the named insured or other
resident relative;
"¢ the vehicle is not used to transport explosives, chemicals, flammable
materials or more than 500 pounds of supplies or equipment;
and
"¢ the vehicle does not have a load capacity of one ton or greater or
a gross vehicle weight rating (according to the manufacturer's
specifications) greater than 12,000 pounds.
I'm sure there are a lot of agents are writing these types of risks on a personal policy even when they don't fit the guidelines. The point is there are some carriers that will entertain various type of artisan use.
Sleazy Agents
I used to be in the personal lines biz as well with large captive company
Ran into the same AmFam agent who repeatedly underinsured homes - 30-50% was not uncommon to see.
I'd quote at proper values and my premium would be high, I'd try to show how they were underinsured - here's what your policy would pay, would XXXX rebuild your house?
But, they would say, our AmFam agent tells us that we have unlimited replacement cost on building and contents, no matter what. It was pretty much impossible to overcome this.
It took a few years but that guy's no longer with AmFam. Perhaps justice/statistics caught up with him.
Ran into the same AmFam agent who repeatedly underinsured homes - 30-50% was not uncommon to see.
I'd quote at proper values and my premium would be high, I'd try to show how they were underinsured - here's what your policy would pay, would XXXX rebuild your house?
But, they would say, our AmFam agent tells us that we have unlimited replacement cost on building and contents, no matter what. It was pretty much impossible to overcome this.
It took a few years but that guy's no longer with AmFam. Perhaps justice/statistics caught up with him.
I was talking to a friend that's been a Nationwide agent for a long time. He said his son has a company that will do the Artisan thing. I know his son has a big Progressive sign out front.
I would like to know what the Like a Good Neighbor policy reads? They will rate the vehicle "U" Utility but does that been it can be used for business?
Far too many caveats on that drive definition. Do you really think there is a contractor out there that would say to himself (or herself) now I've stopped at two sites today, I can't go to another one.
Or the 500 pound limit. Big accident, the guy was hauling a bunch of drywall / lumber/etc. to the job. Insurance company says, we just checked Home Depot and your account shows that you picked up 14- four by 8 pieces of drywall and 20 - 2 X 4's. Your weight was 650 pounds and you were over the limit. Oops!
Would they could they get out from under the claim? If you are looking at paying out $150,000 in claims and there is a legal caveat....I guess we can all think about it.
What we sell are contracts and contracts mean what they say, period.
I would like to know what the Like a Good Neighbor policy reads? They will rate the vehicle "U" Utility but does that been it can be used for business?
Far too many caveats on that drive definition. Do you really think there is a contractor out there that would say to himself (or herself) now I've stopped at two sites today, I can't go to another one.
Or the 500 pound limit. Big accident, the guy was hauling a bunch of drywall / lumber/etc. to the job. Insurance company says, we just checked Home Depot and your account shows that you picked up 14- four by 8 pieces of drywall and 20 - 2 X 4's. Your weight was 650 pounds and you were over the limit. Oops!
Would they could they get out from under the claim? If you are looking at paying out $150,000 in claims and there is a legal caveat....I guess we can all think about it.
What we sell are contracts and contracts mean what they say, period.
yoyowordup wrote:Some independent agency companies will write "Artisan" use vehicles on a personal policy.
Drive Insurance from Agressive actually states:
Vehicles usedVehicles used to transport tools or other materials by the insured in a trade or business are acceptable if all of the following conditions are met:
"¢ there is only one vehicle in this category on the policy;
"¢ the insured visits no more than two job sites per day;
"¢ the vehicle is owned or leased by an individual, not a corporation
or partnership;
"¢ the vehicle is operated solely by the named insured or other
resident relative;
"¢ the vehicle is not used to transport explosives, chemicals, flammable
materials or more than 500 pounds of supplies or equipment;
and
"¢ the vehicle does not have a load capacity of one ton or greater or
a gross vehicle weight rating (according to the manufacturer's
specifications) greater than 12,000 pounds.
I'm sure there are a lot of agents are writing these types of risks on a personal policy even when they don't fit the guidelines. The point is there are some carriers that will entertain various type of artisan use.
It's perfectly normal for most if not all personal lines companies to write a contractor's auto coverage under the following conditions: no employees, 1 to 2 jobsites per day max, no signage on the vehicle, no deliveries - hauls only own materials/tools (remember the 2 x 4's belong to him if he paid for them), the vehicle is titled to him personally and does not require $1 mil limits.
Unfortunately, too many clients and agents over use this. It's best used for the contractor who works for a large company and has to drive his own vehicle to different locations or the handyman who does small jobs and has no employees.
The good news for those of us purists who don't try to use the one size fits all approach to insurance is that more and more of them are being required to have $1mil limits.
As to their tools & equipment on a homeowners policy - I remind them that there is not going to be any coverage if they are stolen from a jobsite (and no we don't write Inland Marine only for these guys) and it's completely up to the adjuster whether they will get paid even if a loss occurrs at their home - they are after all business personal property.
Unfortunately, too many clients and agents over use this. It's best used for the contractor who works for a large company and has to drive his own vehicle to different locations or the handyman who does small jobs and has no employees.
The good news for those of us purists who don't try to use the one size fits all approach to insurance is that more and more of them are being required to have $1mil limits.
As to their tools & equipment on a homeowners policy - I remind them that there is not going to be any coverage if they are stolen from a jobsite (and no we don't write Inland Marine only for these guys) and it's completely up to the adjuster whether they will get paid even if a loss occurrs at their home - they are after all business personal property.
I hope you enjoy the ever increasing E&O premiums or is this the reason that premiums are as high as they are???
YOU remind them? I hope that reminder is in writing, solid, and notarized. We all know how quickly and subjective a person's memory becomes when they want to get a claim paid. How's that go, "the agent never told me?"
I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming but it is up to you to NOT leave the customer hanging on the whim of an adjuster about whether they get paid is not doing them a favor.
I have a lot friends in this insurance business. I called a mom and pop operation and an agency with over 100 EE's. Neither of them have a PIP that will do the contractor thing.
I hope you discuss the hired and non-owned issue.
If you have an employee run an errand in his or her own car. When the employee causes the accident, the injured party is going to look to you to pay for damages since the employee was using the car on company time. This can happen if that old contractor calls up a buddy and says, pick me up some number 8 nails and an accident occurs! The courts, needless to say, have been known to render some strange decisions.
Personally if I could do this stuff on a PIP, the wording is open for too great a determination and for the small money earned......the risk to reward ratio stinks.
Small contractors already have a reputation for stepping outside their legal coverage, enough times that placing them in a more defined arrangment is not my cup of tea.
As to their tools & equipment on a homeowners policy - I remind them that there is not going to be any coverage if they are stolen from a jobsite (and no we don't write Inland Marine only for these guys) and it's completely up to the adjuster whether they will get paid even if a loss occurrs at their home - they are after all business personal property.[/quote]
YOU remind them? I hope that reminder is in writing, solid, and notarized. We all know how quickly and subjective a person's memory becomes when they want to get a claim paid. How's that go, "the agent never told me?"
I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming but it is up to you to NOT leave the customer hanging on the whim of an adjuster about whether they get paid is not doing them a favor.
I have a lot friends in this insurance business. I called a mom and pop operation and an agency with over 100 EE's. Neither of them have a PIP that will do the contractor thing.
I hope you discuss the hired and non-owned issue.
If you have an employee run an errand in his or her own car. When the employee causes the accident, the injured party is going to look to you to pay for damages since the employee was using the car on company time. This can happen if that old contractor calls up a buddy and says, pick me up some number 8 nails and an accident occurs! The courts, needless to say, have been known to render some strange decisions.
Personally if I could do this stuff on a PIP, the wording is open for too great a determination and for the small money earned......the risk to reward ratio stinks.
Small contractors already have a reputation for stepping outside their legal coverage, enough times that placing them in a more defined arrangment is not my cup of tea.
As to their tools & equipment on a homeowners policy - I remind them that there is not going to be any coverage if they are stolen from a jobsite (and no we don't write Inland Marine only for these guys) and it's completely up to the adjuster whether they will get paid even if a loss occurrs at their home - they are after all business personal property.[/quote]
The irony of this whole mess is each and everyone of you is correct. But you know something the carrier 99% of the time will payout on the claim and then get of the risk. The carrier may go after the agent but i doubt it, unless there is a frequency 
The insured only has to say, I didn't know or my agent never said. Farmers agent write this stuff all the time. Don't even waste your time chasing chump change
The insured only has to say, I didn't know or my agent never said. Farmers agent write this stuff all the time. Don't even waste your time chasing chump change
Its better to ask forgiveness then permission
(just do it)
(just do it)
Cross your I and dot your t
Fourteen (probably more) years ago I had a client that burned a large building and houses across the street. It was multi-million dollar claim, in fact it was at the time, the largest fire my city ever had. It took seven years of court cases until the claim was settled. The insurance company lost the court case and paid out the claim.
The fire happened 2 months after a Judo club bought the insurance and paid only a $250 premium. All that I can say is this, on such a large claim if I had given the insurance company a legal reason to step away, they very well may have stepped away. You will be left holding the bag and dealing with the claimants attorneys. Why would anyone ever, ever advise a client to take the cheap way out?
I was glad that I had dotted the "i" and crossed the "t". The people we sell for are not altruistic, benevolent corporations. They are in it to make money and follow the rules given in the contract you sell.
You can have it fast, cheap or good...........but you can't have all three.
The fire happened 2 months after a Judo club bought the insurance and paid only a $250 premium. All that I can say is this, on such a large claim if I had given the insurance company a legal reason to step away, they very well may have stepped away. You will be left holding the bag and dealing with the claimants attorneys. Why would anyone ever, ever advise a client to take the cheap way out?
I was glad that I had dotted the "i" and crossed the "t". The people we sell for are not altruistic, benevolent corporations. They are in it to make money and follow the rules given in the contract you sell.
You can have it fast, cheap or good...........but you can't have all three.
Sorry JSJAG you misunderstood. I don't write these guys - these are the ones that come into my office for their GL & tell me they have coverage thru their homeowner (for their tools )or personal auto. I rarely do any personal lines anymore (not worth the headaches )- my agency is 90% commercial (and in AZ) so we see these guys daily. However, I've done my time in the P/L arena.
I'm glad you have strong feelings on this subject. It would make all our lives easier if everyone understood how to properly cover these exposures. And sanddog is absolutely correct when he says that carriers will pay and rarely will they subrogate against an agents E&O. This happens more frequently with direct writers.
FYI - it's called a PAP (personal auto policy) PIP is personal injury protection which takes the place of medical coverage in various states.
I'm glad you have strong feelings on this subject. It would make all our lives easier if everyone understood how to properly cover these exposures. And sanddog is absolutely correct when he says that carriers will pay and rarely will they subrogate against an agents E&O. This happens more frequently with direct writers.
FYI - it's called a PAP (personal auto policy) PIP is personal injury protection which takes the place of medical coverage in various states.
PAP yes you are right on spot. I got started on a thread and didn't stop.
I've only jumped back into P/L to make a few sales. On 10/29/2006, ten minutes before my wife's office closed for the New Years Eve weekend, the HR person came in and told her to clean out her desk, her job no longer exists. After 18 years she get a 10 minute notice.
Anyhow the quickest way I thought of to make up for her loss from our dual income was to sell some AU/HO. Now that I have a bunch of leads I must quote it. IT STINKS! As soon as these leads are over I'm back into the commercial stuff. Can anybody make a decent living in personal lines? I sure don't see how.
I did misunderstand, I thought you were writing them.
I've only jumped back into P/L to make a few sales. On 10/29/2006, ten minutes before my wife's office closed for the New Years Eve weekend, the HR person came in and told her to clean out her desk, her job no longer exists. After 18 years she get a 10 minute notice.
Anyhow the quickest way I thought of to make up for her loss from our dual income was to sell some AU/HO. Now that I have a bunch of leads I must quote it. IT STINKS! As soon as these leads are over I'm back into the commercial stuff. Can anybody make a decent living in personal lines? I sure don't see how.
I did misunderstand, I thought you were writing them.
CATHIEA wrote:Sorry JSJAG you misunderstood. I don't write these guys - these are the ones that come into my office for their GL & tell me they have coverage thru their homeowner (for their tools )or personal auto. I rarely do any personal lines anymore (not worth the headaches )- my agency is 90% commercial (and in AZ) so we see these guys daily. However, I've done my time in the P/L arena.
I'm glad you have strong feelings on this subject. It would make all our lives easier if everyone understood how to properly cover these exposures. And sanddog is absolutely correct when he says that carriers will pay and rarely will they subrogate against an agents E&O. This happens more frequently with direct writers.
FYI - it's called a PAP (personal auto policy) PIP is personal injury protection which takes the place of medical coverage in various states.
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independent guy
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