DO you want in this pool

etimer · Post by **etimer** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:08 am

Last week I made a post about using a truck as a contractor and insuring it under a personal policy. Other posts described how there are some companies that will place these vehicles in the private passenger pool.

I made a call to one of those companies and asked this question, "you will insure the truck I use to carry my equipment, materials, visit job sites, etc. under a personal policy.....will you also insure my son to deliver pizza's?" They said, yes we would place him on a personal policy.

If this company is placing all of the above types of risk in their personal auto pool, is there any wonder why their rates tend to be high?

I don't think I'd want to be in that pool and helping to subsidize autos that are clearly use for commercial endeavours.

Or maybe we should do away with even thinking of vehicles used in commercial endeavours and think only private vehicle.

CATHIEA · Post by **CATHIEA** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:59 pm

As long as commercial auto programs are provided to personal lines agents this will continue to happen. We can only continue to do the right thing and know that we aren't contributing to the problem. After 30+ years in this business I have given up trying to change it (which is why I no longer work on the company side). Just as in every industry, there are going to be those who do things the right way and succeed and those who cut corners and temporarily succeed. It's up to each of us to decide if we're in this for the long haul or if we're just a flash in the pan. Integrity is the best sales tool we have.

sanddog1 · Post by **sanddog1** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:03 pm

What are you wack!! There isn't single insurance carrier in Calif, that would ever allow and OK Pizza delivery and contractor uses of any vehicle during the course of their employment in personal Lines. Pool or no Pool, the Acord form would almost make it illegal by the agent to sub-ment. What are you a Farmers agent. I hate to say this but your full of Sh%*. The underwrter would never OK that Risk...just what we need on this forum another false truths.

CATHIEA, please tell me your not buying into the comment

I made a call to one of those companies and asked this question, "you will insure the truck I use to carry my equipment, materials, visit job sites, etc. under a personal policy.....will you also insure my son to deliver pizza's?" They said, yes we would place him on a personal policy.

lewilewi · Post by **lewilewi** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:13 am

I know of two direct insurers that will write 'artisan' use on a personal policy. These carriers rate for the additional exposure, and write the business as an accomodation to existing/loyal customers who also have a private passenger vehicle insured. The risks are light as far as commercial risks are concerned-- plumbers & HVAC contractors (for example) with no other drivers besides the insured, and with visits to only a few different jobsites per day. It's important to note though, that these vehicles are written on a p.p. contract, so the business equipment most likely isn't properly covered.

d's insurance store · Post by **d's insurance store** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:28 am

I also know of a number of personal lines companies which will extract a bit of extra premium and rate for light commercial/artisan use of a pick up or van. Yeah, there's no coverage for business equipment and loading/unloading, and the risk has to be a one person shop without employees, but it fills a need for many small time tradespeople.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with this kind of risk accomodation. It's certainly simple, and allows for homeowner discounts and ease of understanding for the insured.

But Pizza Delivery!!?? Eh, I have to believe the person answering that question at the company level was perhaps talking out of turn. I don't know of any personal lines company, at least in California, who will willingly and knowingly underwrite the risk for a pizza delivery exposure. I'm sure there are risks underwritten before the exposure and a household driver takes that kind of job, but at least a couple of the company's I represent have exclusionary language for commercial delivery under the personal lines contract. In fact, my mainstream commercial auto carriers won't underwrite a risk with time element delivery exposures.

Just my opinion in the early morning.

CATHIEA · Post by **CATHIEA** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:53 pm

Sanddog you really can't believe that all agents are above doing this type of activity? Now I have to say that only a very new person to this industry would ever submit or disclose such a risk to the underwriter. However, there are a number of vehicles used for pizza delivery and every other type of excluded coverage being written on p/l policies every day - the carriers just don't know it. I've run into some of the most off the wall and blatent offenses over the years. Some of it was because of a lack of experience on the part of the CSR or producer but there's that part of our industry that just can't play by the rules.

Now I can never believe a carrier (other than maybe Geico - and their people just don't know any better) would knowingly write or agree to write these kinds of risks, etimer. However, if you contacted a ST Farm, Nationwide, Farmers, etc agent you could get that type of response - and please remember that I used the word COULD (there are some that do have a clue). Unless you have an appointment with Hartford, Encompass, Met, etc you wouldn't even get near the underwriter with that type of question. And if you did you'd probably be getting a call from the marketing rep to discuss training!

sanddog1 · Post by **sanddog1** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:25 pm

CATHIEA I know and i agree with you. I am appointed with NationWide , please don't put that carrier in the grouping as farmers or STfarm . I am also appointed with Hartford. And yes if i were to ask that lame of question.

They would say something like are you for real..no your just kidd'en right?

I love the response by lewilewi, who claims he has carriers who will write artisans In personal lines, as long as they have a ton business, 45 homes, and pot gold and that carrier will do it. Please name one admitted carrier in CA, that will right any type of contractor on a personl lines form with 1 Mil GL, not a chance. Chance are i am appointed, i'll call carrier and get a laugh

Porter · Post by **Porter** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:41 pm

Sanddog1,

When you say you are appointed with Nationwide do you mean Allied. Nationwide is captive like Farmers and State Farm right?

Porter

sanddog1 · Post by **sanddog1** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:06 pm

Yes i am appointed with NationWide-Allied. And NationWide is the parent Company for Allied, they handle for the most part the p&c side of the business and many specialized programs. And NO

either one is a captive like the farmers or allstate, st farm.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:12 pm

There ARE several personal lines carriers that will write a risk and rate as artisan use. It is usually an employee of a contractor and the conditions are usually that it is a pickup without racks that does not carry goods (except for personal tools) and goes to the jobsite and stays there (as in an employee of a contractor where the contractor has that employee drive himself to the jobsite). Sandog is write, however, that you won't get $1M in coverage but those employees usually aren't looking for that. If its an actual contractor, they are more appropriately written on a commercial policy IMO. However, I do know that CSAA here in CA will allow some business usage as long as it is only a certain percentage of overall usage.

I am mainly commercial lines so I really don't run into this situation anymore and write all self employed contractors on a commercial policy.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:43 pm

Thanks Sanddog for that explanation. I am appointed with Allied also. I always that that Nationwide agents were captive.

I had a guy insured with Progressive. He started a detail business so we changed his auto from persona lines to a Progressive commercial auto policy. The price was actually less for the same coverages.

etimer · Post by **etimer** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Exactly how do you consider HVAC and plumber to have less exposure than ..oh let's say a General Contractor? If anything a plumber is going to be making more over the road calls. Have you ever in your life worked construction? Thirty years ago I did and let me tell you...a lot of tuff happens on a job site. A lot more than driving your car to work and letting it sit there for 8 hours.

You all can twist it the way you like and I think it is more of "hey it's an easy sale" than one of correctly insuring a risk. You only offer it to "loyal" customers? Who is a loyal customer, who defines that...do you? If you do, better check out the class action suit columns about discrimination.

A business auto policy doesn't cost that much more per year and if you are going to do it....why not do it the correct way? Or is it all about sales?

lewilewi wrote:I know of two direct insurers that will write 'artisan' use on a personal policy. These carriers rate for the additional exposure, and write the business as an accomodation to existing/loyal customers who also have a private passenger vehicle insured. The risks are light as far as commercial risks are concerned-- plumbers & HVAC contractors (for example) with no other drivers besides the insured, and with visits to only a few different jobsites per day. It's important to note though, that these vehicles are written on a p.p. contract, so the business equipment most likely isn't properly covered.

etimer · Post by **etimer** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:23 pm

It was a ST Farm agency. When I offered my astonishment that the insurance company would do the "son delivering pizza" the guy was clueless as to why I would be astonished.

I even went a bit farther with him. So I said, I have a friend that is a carpenter type and he has his work truck on his personal policy. I said I think they charge a bit more and rate it with something like a "U" symbol. His answer, "I've never heard of such a thing or charging a higher premium to use his truck for business.

That is the kind of stuff that floats out there in far too many direct writer agencies. I think they should have their own E&O pool.

CATHIEA wrote:Sanddog you really can't believe that all agents are above doing this type of activity? Now I have to say that only a very new person to this industry would ever submit or disclose such a risk to the underwriter. However, there are a number of vehicles used for pizza delivery and every other type of excluded coverage being written on p/l policies every day - the carriers just don't know it. I've run into some of the most off the wall and blatent offenses over the years. Some of it was because of a lack of experience on the part of the CSR or producer but there's that part of our industry that just can't play by the rules.

Now I can never believe a carrier (other than maybe Geico - and their people just don't know any better) would knowingly write or agree to write these kinds of risks, etimer. However, if you contacted a ST Farm, Nationwide, Farmers, etc agent you could get that type of response - and please remember that I used the word COULD (there are some that do have a clue). Unless you have an appointment with Hartford, Encompass, Met, etc you wouldn't even get near the underwriter with that type of question. And if you did you'd probably be getting a call from the marketing rep to discuss training!

agent23 · Post by **agent23** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:29 pm

lewilewi's point is a very valid one. Although as a commercial lines agent that sometimes writes personal, I will out of habit write the risk commercially, but the 5 different companies that I write with will allow for artisan/business use of vehicles. Only one of the five carriers will write that policy above 300csl. I usually write the policy at 1 million csl, if the business gripes about price lowest 500 csl. It can be done, and companies will account for it through premium of that rated vehicle. I don't recommend it since the limits are low and you are looking to protect the assets for a business with this policy. However, the pizza delivery sounds a little off to me. That is risk that none of the 5 companies I work with would allow for on a personal policy. Some won't write that commercially either.

CATHIEA · Post by **CATHIEA** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:45 pm

[

quote]It was a ST Farm agency. When I offered my astonishment that the insurance company would do the "son delivering pizza" the guy was clueless as to why I would be astonished.

I even went a bit farther with him. So I said, I have a friend that is a carpenter type and he has his work truck on his personal policy. I said I think they charge a bit more and rate it with something like a "U" symbol. His answer, "I've never heard of such a thing or charging a higher premium to use his truck for business.

That is the kind of stuff that floats out there in far too many direct writer agencies. I think they should have their own E&O pool.

Let it go already.... St farm doesn't train their agents in commercial - any more than the other direct writers. There are a few good ones so we shouldn't paint them all as morones or crooks. Also their guidlines are really misleading - they can write tow trucks in commercial auto - just not on hook coverage. To us this is an E&O exposure - they don't have E&O policies.

The ones I worry about are the independent agents that are writing taxi cabs on a personal lines policy with a carrier I do business with - yeah I called the underwriter to tell them what they were on when the insured gave me his dec.

It's not the E&O premium that worries me but the carrier becoming insolvant due to this type of unknown activity. It costs me more money to have to move a book of business than my E&O premium.

DO you want in this pool

DO you want in this pool

Fairly common