I have a client that called and asked if I can give him a life insurance quote. Yes I can.
He had a 20 year level plan that was reaching its 20th year. It was with Primerica. They were offereing him another 20 year level plan, no underwriting questions but the premium offered has, of course, gone up.
Hm? I've been around the block once or twice and the underwriting of term insurance considers many things and health is one of them. I'm not sure what is going on now. They faxed a copy of the offer. In the fax, the offer showed that he is being offered a standard rating but I don't see anything about 20 years level guaranteed. All I see is 20 year level premium.
Ok...I took an app., the guy went through underwriting. His blood tests show that his liver enzymes are 5 times the normal level and he currently has a problem. The insurance company will underwrite but at a table rating.
Now what I am getting at is this...
IF Primerica is handing out life insurance policies without underwriting, how long will it take until their re-insurers have a fit? They have given someone a policy that is not at all in the health of a Standard rated person.
Insurance underwriting isn't about shooting craps but is about gathering information and making an informed offer. This guy said he has a new policy that was sent to him. I asked if he sees a premium schedule in the policy but couldn't find one. I was asking because 20 year level term doesn't always mean guaranteed premiums. I have seen premiums guaranteed for 10 years and then they may change after the tenth year.
Just seems strange to me that an insurance company will make offers without underwriting.
Life insurance after 20 year renewal
Moderators: Josh, independent guy
Keep in mind that Primerical Life Insurance is an A+ XIV company. As I recall, their 20 year level term included an option to renew for another 20 year level term (or annual renewable term) without any additional underwriting. That may be a requirement of their old policy form. Their new policy forms may be different.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify their lack of underwriting. But if their old policy form guaranteed the ability to renew for another 20 years without any underwriting, the company has to honor it.
It sounds like it may be in the clients best interest to take the renewal.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify their lack of underwriting. But if their old policy form guaranteed the ability to renew for another 20 years without any underwriting, the company has to honor it.
It sounds like it may be in the clients best interest to take the renewal.
Yes most definately it is in their best interest to take the renewal option. I have never seen a guranteed option to renew for another 20 without underwriting. I guess they had a guaranteed insurability option of some sort.
IF that policy was written 20 years ago it was with AL Williams and I can't remember the insurance company that AL Williams wrote.
I didn't know that Pirmerica was their own life insurance company. Did that happen under Weil's term with CitiGroup? I sell very, very little life insurance so I'm not up to date on the who what when and where of all the marketng agencies. If Citigroup and Travelers are one and Citigroup owns Primerica, doesn't that make them all one business family?
If I were the guy with the liver problem I would take the policy and run.
I just didn't like being the one to tell him that he needs to see his Dr. and pronto. Yuck!
IF that policy was written 20 years ago it was with AL Williams and I can't remember the insurance company that AL Williams wrote.
I didn't know that Pirmerica was their own life insurance company. Did that happen under Weil's term with CitiGroup? I sell very, very little life insurance so I'm not up to date on the who what when and where of all the marketng agencies. If Citigroup and Travelers are one and Citigroup owns Primerica, doesn't that make them all one business family?
If I were the guy with the liver problem I would take the policy and run.
I just didn't like being the one to tell him that he needs to see his Dr. and pronto. Yuck!Big Dog wrote:Keep in mind that Primerical Life Insurance is an A+ XIV company. As I recall, their 20 year level term included an option to renew for another 20 year level term (or annual renewable term) without any additional underwriting. That may be a requirement of their old policy form. Their new policy forms may be different.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify their lack of underwriting. But if their old policy form guaranteed the ability to renew for another 20 years without any underwriting, the company has to honor it.
It sounds like it may be in the clients best interest to take the renewal.
ALW /Primerica
20 years ago ALW was using MILICO, or Massachusetts Indemnity Life Insurance Company. I saw a lot of these contracts. The original idea was to have the client buy the term policy for 20 years, generally a replacement of a permament contract. They were to invest the surrender value along with the premium difference with the ALW agent. At the end of 20 years they are suppose to have more than enough $$$ to drop the coverage!
Ask the client what happened? Why doesn't he have the big cash account? Where is his MILICO agent now?
This concept was assumed to work in theory, but people being people, never has worked in reality. People just don't save like they should. Hence another value of a permanent life policy. The only good life insurance policy is the one that's still in force when you are not!
Your client ought to consider converting to a permanent policy!
Swymmer
Ask the client what happened? Why doesn't he have the big cash account? Where is his MILICO agent now?
This concept was assumed to work in theory, but people being people, never has worked in reality. People just don't save like they should. Hence another value of a permanent life policy. The only good life insurance policy is the one that's still in force when you are not!
Your client ought to consider converting to a permanent policy!
Swymmer
Throwing in my 2 cents, any company that I have a contract with that has a guaranteed renewalble term, there is no medical or underwriting required. The only thing that takes place is that the new term is at their age as of the new term.
Tell this guy, take the new policy and pay whatever, with the liver situation unless you have a minor uprate (which is doubtful) he needs to keep this in place.
Also, depending on the dollar amount of the term he has, "if" he is credit heavy, he may want to also take out whatever is offered on his credit cards and such (read the terms first). Sometimes this is a neccessity, even though regular life insurance versus credit is the best.
Tell this guy, take the new policy and pay whatever, with the liver situation unless you have a minor uprate (which is doubtful) he needs to keep this in place.
Also, depending on the dollar amount of the term he has, "if" he is credit heavy, he may want to also take out whatever is offered on his credit cards and such (read the terms first). Sometimes this is a neccessity, even though regular life insurance versus credit is the best.
Well, yes everything contract I have is guaranteed renewable to an advanced age. Unlike this one, after the level period the policy reverts to ART but soon the ART premiums get $$$$$ crazy.
This MILCO policy guy is offered another level term period at a standard rate and a premium of $960 a year. So he comes to me and asks for a quote. I run the numbers for level 20, for the face amount he wanted the preferred rate (not the best preferred...that's Gods rate and is about the only one that gets that rate) the rate most healthy people get, was about $460 a year.
So what I think is that MILICO renews yes but at a very high premium for healthy people. I think I figured it out. What the underwriters have priced the new level term offerings is for people with health problems that can not leave them.
Actually with a table B rating added on, my rate wasn't that bad. It was $110 a year higher for a guaranteed level 20 year policy. SO what that MILCO, no health questions asked policy is rated darn near a table B rated, newly underwritten policy.
I wonder how many healthy people take the MILICO renewal without shopping?
Actually, even though I am a bit over a $100 more a year, I still may get the business. I talked to the guys wife and apparently they have been calling the Primerica agent to ask a question. They have left multiple messages for him to them but.......no calls. These people have AO/HO with me. The wife's business has their CGL, life, group health, disability buy out stuff with me. She is a solid 15 year client and appreciates the service I give her. If it were her, the extra $100 a year would not be an issue because she knows if she calls me, I return calls that day (if at all possible) and guaranteed for sure by the next morning.
This MILCO policy guy is offered another level term period at a standard rate and a premium of $960 a year. So he comes to me and asks for a quote. I run the numbers for level 20, for the face amount he wanted the preferred rate (not the best preferred...that's Gods rate and is about the only one that gets that rate) the rate most healthy people get, was about $460 a year.
So what I think is that MILICO renews yes but at a very high premium for healthy people. I think I figured it out. What the underwriters have priced the new level term offerings is for people with health problems that can not leave them.
Actually with a table B rating added on, my rate wasn't that bad. It was $110 a year higher for a guaranteed level 20 year policy. SO what that MILCO, no health questions asked policy is rated darn near a table B rated, newly underwritten policy.
I wonder how many healthy people take the MILICO renewal without shopping?
Actually, even though I am a bit over a $100 more a year, I still may get the business. I talked to the guys wife and apparently they have been calling the Primerica agent to ask a question. They have left multiple messages for him to them but.......no calls. These people have AO/HO with me. The wife's business has their CGL, life, group health, disability buy out stuff with me. She is a solid 15 year client and appreciates the service I give her. If it were her, the extra $100 a year would not be an issue because she knows if she calls me, I return calls that day (if at all possible) and guaranteed for sure by the next morning.
Sundance wrote:Throwing in my 2 cents, any company that I have a contract with that has a guaranteed renewalble term, there is no medical or underwriting required. The only thing that takes place is that the new term is at their age as of the new term.
Tell this guy, take the new policy and pay whatever, with the liver situation unless you have a minor uprate (which is doubtful) he needs to keep this in place.
Also, depending on the dollar amount of the term he has, "if" he is credit heavy, he may want to also take out whatever is offered on his credit cards and such (read the terms first). Sometimes this is a neccessity, even though regular life insurance versus credit is the best.
etimer,
I forget now, but did you say, he was approved with your company? If so, heck yes, I'd pursue the sale fully. If you are only talking $100 a year diff, then the service, insight and knowledge you provide should certainly be worth $100 to them yearly and they will KNOW that they have a guaranteed 20 year term...
Not sure the companies you have them with but perhaps you can review the other policies to apply some discounts etc to make up for the $100 if that is indeed their hang up.
Good luck.
I forget now, but did you say, he was approved with your company? If so, heck yes, I'd pursue the sale fully. If you are only talking $100 a year diff, then the service, insight and knowledge you provide should certainly be worth $100 to them yearly and they will KNOW that they have a guaranteed 20 year term...
Not sure the companies you have them with but perhaps you can review the other policies to apply some discounts etc to make up for the $100 if that is indeed their hang up.
Good luck.
After a rather long uw process and work he did get an offer from my company. Yes he was approved for a table B.
The thing is that Im here, I've been here for 25 years and the Primerica agent that was assigned the renewal is a newbie. A newbie that statistically will probably be gone within the next several months. To me it is my living, to him it is probably his part time thing.
Yes I will give it a shot at getting the business.
The thing is that Im here, I've been here for 25 years and the Primerica agent that was assigned the renewal is a newbie. A newbie that statistically will probably be gone within the next several months. To me it is my living, to him it is probably his part time thing.
Yes I will give it a shot at getting the business.
Sundance wrote:etimer,
I forget now, but did you say, he was approved with your company? If so, heck yes, I'd pursue the sale fully. If you are only talking $100 a year diff, then the service, insight and knowledge you provide should certainly be worth $100 to them yearly and they will KNOW that they have a guaranteed 20 year term...
Not sure the companies you have them with but perhaps you can review the other policies to apply some discounts etc to make up for the $100 if that is indeed their hang up.
Good luck.
liver enzymes
I've been doing this for 30 years, and have on several occasions delivered policies with table ratings due to elevated liver enzymes. If it cannot be traced back to hepititis, it is generally the result of excessive alcohol consumption.
In every case I have been able to ask the underwriter for a letter to the client that promises to remove the additional rating if the client can get the enzymes at an acceptable level. Even if they client doesn't try to do this, it shows the client that you and the company have his best interests in mind. In probably 3 out of 4 times the ratings were reduced after a year or two of dramatically reduced alcohol use. These are guys that hang out at the tavern after work. They simply decided to cut back on the amount they consume. One younger client was rated table D by Lincoln Life and later (2 years) was re-rated as a preferred risk!
Ask your underwriter, and if agreeable, offer this opportunity to the client in a positive manner. The client will appreciate your hard work and it helps to "close" the case for you. It is more work on your part, but, as you say, you are there for this client! Good Luck!
Swymmer
In every case I have been able to ask the underwriter for a letter to the client that promises to remove the additional rating if the client can get the enzymes at an acceptable level. Even if they client doesn't try to do this, it shows the client that you and the company have his best interests in mind. In probably 3 out of 4 times the ratings were reduced after a year or two of dramatically reduced alcohol use. These are guys that hang out at the tavern after work. They simply decided to cut back on the amount they consume. One younger client was rated table D by Lincoln Life and later (2 years) was re-rated as a preferred risk!
Ask your underwriter, and if agreeable, offer this opportunity to the client in a positive manner. The client will appreciate your hard work and it helps to "close" the case for you. It is more work on your part, but, as you say, you are there for this client! Good Luck!
Swymmer
Re: liver enzymes
Thanks for the info but several weeks ago I did get the UW to agree to a look-back in 2 years. Because of timing he had to accept the current renewal and is paying monthly. Also we are still trying to get a better current rating. He is agreeing to get another lab test from his doctor. Liver enzymes are tricky things and can go lower very quickly. Personal experience on that one.
My client wasn't comfortable taking a higher premium and pinning hopes on two years from now getting a better rate. Plus, unknown to me, my table D was $300 a year higher than his renewal offer, not $100. Apparently the initial higher premium renewal offer they faxed me had a child rider and WP that they no longer want and removed it. Removing those things lowered the premium by $200.
This is a bit odd. The plan he was offered is an entirely new policy form. If he would have renewed under his old policy form (the original 20 year level plan) the initial premium (inc WP & child rider) would have been $1,300 a year. Apparently the lower premium is a new policy that Primerica has rolled out and is much lower in cost. If I get this down from table D to table C I will be over $100 a less than the current renewal rate.
I wonder if Primerica and Travelers are making money for their owners, CitiGroup? With the recent share purchase of Citi Bank by the Abu Daubi (sp?) folks, who will make 11% on their securities, I imagine that CitiGroup is going to sharpen their pencil. I wouldn't mind having some preferred securities that threw off 11% a year.
I've been doing this for about 25 years and many years ago, in the early 1980's I sold a lot of life insurance. That was when you had maybe 4 pages in an app. Now the app. is a small book, the HIPPA forms, the AIDs, forms, the fraud forms, etc. and on and on it goes.
My client wasn't comfortable taking a higher premium and pinning hopes on two years from now getting a better rate. Plus, unknown to me, my table D was $300 a year higher than his renewal offer, not $100. Apparently the initial higher premium renewal offer they faxed me had a child rider and WP that they no longer want and removed it. Removing those things lowered the premium by $200.
This is a bit odd. The plan he was offered is an entirely new policy form. If he would have renewed under his old policy form (the original 20 year level plan) the initial premium (inc WP & child rider) would have been $1,300 a year. Apparently the lower premium is a new policy that Primerica has rolled out and is much lower in cost. If I get this down from table D to table C I will be over $100 a less than the current renewal rate.
I wonder if Primerica and Travelers are making money for their owners, CitiGroup? With the recent share purchase of Citi Bank by the Abu Daubi (sp?) folks, who will make 11% on their securities, I imagine that CitiGroup is going to sharpen their pencil. I wouldn't mind having some preferred securities that threw off 11% a year.
I've been doing this for about 25 years and many years ago, in the early 1980's I sold a lot of life insurance. That was when you had maybe 4 pages in an app. Now the app. is a small book, the HIPPA forms, the AIDs, forms, the fraud forms, etc. and on and on it goes.
wlunday wrote:I've been doing this for 30 years, and have on several occasions delivered policies with table ratings due to elevated liver enzymes. If it cannot be traced back to hepititis, it is generally the result of excessive alcohol consumption.
In every case I have been able to ask the underwriter for a letter to the client that promises to remove the additional rating if the client can get the enzymes at an acceptable level. Even if they client doesn't try to do this, it shows the client that you and the company have his best interests in mind. In probably 3 out of 4 times the ratings were reduced after a year or two of dramatically reduced alcohol use. These are guys that hang out at the tavern after work. They simply decided to cut back on the amount they consume. One younger client was rated table D by Lincoln Life and later (2 years) was re-rated as a preferred risk!
Ask your underwriter, and if agreeable, offer this opportunity to the client in a positive manner. The client will appreciate your hard work and it helps to "close" the case for you. It is more work on your part, but, as you say, you are there for this client! Good Luck!
Swymmer
old timers
Yea, your right. The apps are longer and much more detailed.
But, It beats digging ditches in the NW winter!
I'll keep my desk job!
Swymmer
But, It beats digging ditches in the NW winter!
I'll keep my desk job!
Swymmer
Re: Life insurance after 20 year renewal
This is an old post but I had a guy tell me about the UW of the old Primerica policies.
He said to remember the policies were usually sold with the idea of by term invest the difference and in 20 years you won't need insurance. He said that the policies were often sold with the auto renewal option but at a higher premium. The underwriting of the policies was done knowing that in the future many of the people will need insurance at the end of twenty years. That people will have illnesses that will preclude them from obtaining preferred rates from another insurance company. Therefore the rate that was attached to the automatic renewal rate is a Standard rating it would seem very reasonable to some people and Premerica captures new business. The Standard rating is probably lower than a lot of other companies Standard rating. This was done because Primerica had already captured twenty years of premiums and will collect more at a higher rate.
Hm....makes sense and is a bit of marketing brilliance.
He said to remember the policies were usually sold with the idea of by term invest the difference and in 20 years you won't need insurance. He said that the policies were often sold with the auto renewal option but at a higher premium. The underwriting of the policies was done knowing that in the future many of the people will need insurance at the end of twenty years. That people will have illnesses that will preclude them from obtaining preferred rates from another insurance company. Therefore the rate that was attached to the automatic renewal rate is a Standard rating it would seem very reasonable to some people and Premerica captures new business. The Standard rating is probably lower than a lot of other companies Standard rating. This was done because Primerica had already captured twenty years of premiums and will collect more at a higher rate.
Hm....makes sense and is a bit of marketing brilliance.
etimer wrote:I have a client that called and asked if I can give him a life insurance quote. Yes I can.
He had a 20 year level plan that was reaching its 20th year. It was with Primerica. They were offereing him another 20 year level plan, no underwriting questions but the premium offered has, of course, gone up.
Hm? I've been around the block once or twice and the underwriting of term insurance considers many things and health is one of them. I'm not sure what is going on now. They faxed a copy of the offer. In the fax, the offer showed that he is being offered a standard rating but I don't see anything about 20 years level guaranteed. All I see is 20 year level premium.
Ok...I took an app., the guy went through underwriting. His blood tests show that his liver enzymes are 5 times the normal level and he currently has a problem. The insurance company will underwrite but at a table rating.
Now what I am getting at is this...
IF Primerica is handing out life insurance policies without underwriting, how long will it take until their re-insurers have a fit? They have given someone a policy that is not at all in the health of a Standard rated person.
Insurance underwriting isn't about shooting craps but is about gathering information and making an informed offer. This guy said he has a new policy that was sent to him. I asked if he sees a premium schedule in the policy but couldn't find one. I was asking because 20 year level term doesn't always mean guaranteed premiums. I have seen premiums guaranteed for 10 years and then they may change after the tenth year.
Just seems strange to me that an insurance company will make offers without underwriting.